In this episode of the Natupreneur Podcast, my biz buddy Denise Duffield-Thomas share a conversation about busting business roadblocks, turning 40, and building a life and business you love!
We have a really candid deep dive from Denise’s entrepreneurial beginnings into what happens when roadblocks come up in your business, all the way to how we have navigated loving ourselves through the shift of turning 40 this year. As usual, her truth bombs and gold nuggets around money mindset and running a business you love that supports your life and the world are gold.
Tune in or read the transcript below…
T: Hey everyone and welcome to another episode of the Natupreneur Movement. As usual, I am super excited to speak to our guest today!
It’s a wonderful thing to have somebody on the show who I love talking to in real life and on get-togethers online, who has definitely changed my life as an influence, a mentor and as one of my business besties! Our kids hang out together and all sorts of stuff.
Every time I have introduced her to our practitioner world, everybody’s life changes from the wonderful gift and talent that Denise has. So hey, Denise, how are you doing?
D: I’m so good! And I love that we’re actually probably only 15 minutes drive from each other and we’re doing this in separate offices. Most of the time I’m speaking to someone all the way across the other side of the world. So I love that we’re both here in Newcastle, same time zone.
T: Yeah, it’s nice. And it’s summer and it’s yummy. It’s a good time to be in Newcastle. A little bit of a scary time, as well, because we’ve got the fires that have been happening all over New South Wales. It’s actually nice to actually do something inside at the moment because there is a lot of smoke haze today.
Being Grateful For Abundance
D: It makes me really grateful that we have our own businesses when things like this happen. You can be flexible but also since we’re gonna be talking about money, the abundance to be able to help and support. Because that’s important to us right now.
T: Yeah, that’s one of the most powerful things that I’ve found. Just this past fortnight seeing ash fall from the sky, I’ve been able to really change quickly some of the things that I do for my business and garner interest. I’ve gotten really on board with topics that I wasn’t really aware of and joined other causes and businesses helping our planet in a whole different way. Just even through things like social media and Instagram and Twitter.
D: Yes. There’s so much to talk about around that. Maybe we get into the money mindset stuff first. But, gosh, imagine what our communities can do with more money?
T: Absolutely. And that’s what you’re all about! Just in case people haven’t heard of Denise Duffield-Thomas before, tell us about where it all began for you when it comes to money mindset and creating an entrepreneur lifestyle?
Mindset Roadblocks Affect Everyone
D: I wanted to be an entrepreneur my whole life, even when I was a kid. I don’t know if that was just how I’m naturally wired. Some kids are just really creative with that they want to do business. But I think later on for me, it became about independence and freedom. I saw a lot of women in my family who were stuck in situations because they didn’t have money to leave, basically.
I thought I’d go to university and get an education, I’ll get a really good job. So I did go into corporate life for a little bit because I thought maybe that’s the answer to financial independence. But I realised that the corporate world is not very often a nice place for women, let’s put it that way. Or a very flexible place for women, if you want to have a family and things.
So I was always driven to have a business for various reasons. I never really thought I’d help other people do that. Because, to be honest, I was surrounded by no entrepreneurs and so they all thought I was a bit weird for running a business.
So I experienced those money mindset roadblocks very early on in my entrepreneurial journey, as we all do. When you’re like, “Oh, my God, I have to charge people? I have to have money conversations? Deal with awkward stuff?”
T: Before the money stuff, there is the business stuff, too. So many practitioners come from a corporate background or they come from a background where they’re an employee. Then we go and get this qualification to be a naturopath, a herbalist, or nutritionist practitioner. Nobody told us we have to run a business.
I didn’t have a family of people that ran businesses. So it was really hard to have those conversations without upper-limiting and putting in blocks in the way. as well. So I totally get what you’re saying about no one around you having done business before.
D: And then you think of all the conditioning that we have as women around being nice and inclusive and all these things. Which is wonderful but – we don’t know how to do business like that. The only entrepreneur I knew growing up was my stepdad, and he wasn’t a very ethical person in business. He was a bit of a, like a dick!
I didn’t have any role models for what it would be like to be feminine but still have boundaries and want to help people, because that’s what I desired to do. And make money. It all felt like one or the other, and I didn’t know how to make those two mesh.
Common Money Blocks
So I really hit every single one of those roadblocks in my entrepreneurial journey, even though I was an avid student of personal development from a very young age. But I found that all the personal development books I read, none of them touched on money. They almost perpetuated the ideas that:
- money is dirty
- being rich is greedy
- rich people are ruining the world
and all of these things. So I was very confused!
I was thinking, “I can improve myself and do affirmations. I’m working on my mindset and learning about NLP. But where does that go into money?” So I had to do a lot of those explorations for myself.
Of course, I’m the type of personality that when I learn something, I immediately want to share it with others. I didn’t think that would be my job, I thought I would just share that with peers in my masterminds, friends, and all the other people I was meeting in my entrepreneurial journey. But then I really felt the calling to try to formalise that and to do a course and book.
Then I realised quite early on that this was the path for me, to really go deep in that and not try to be everything to everyone. I felt like this is where I could be most of use to people. And I really love it, too! So that’s good.
Always Be Busting Roadblocks
T: I have loved hearing about the roadblock after roadblock after roadblock. There’s this whole notion that once we’ve figured it out, that something magical happens and it’s all sorted. And that we won’t have to think about it again once it’s done. We think we’ll have reached some weird pinnacle of no more money blocks in our whole entire lives and all will be well.
D: Wouldn’t that be great?
I think that begins at the start of your business journey. There’s this perception that if you do what you love, you’ll never have to work a day in your life. We’ve all heard that. And this feeling that if it’s your destiny, it’ll be easy. But that’s not the case, either.
Actually, sometimes it’s hard because it’s so meaningful to you. If you’ve had practice businesses, or you’ve been in jobs that you didn’t really love, you’ve probably thought, “Okay, whatever. I don’t love this but at least I’ll get paid.”
But then there’s something there about, “Oh my god, but this is my destiny!” So it must be just this perfect thing. That’s not the case. You still have to do stuff, you still have to overcome your money blocks. And then you will continue to.
I’ve got a fairly successful business now but I still have to work on my money blocks. You and I have these conversations all the time. Sometimes it’s old stuff, but sometimes it’s kind of new, but with will like a new lens to it- like old but new. I think you and I are always discovering new layers to this.
New Level, New Devil (Same As The Old Devil)
T: Always! One of the terms from one of your first books was, “New Level, New Devil.”
Sometimes when those things come up, it’s really easy to drop into, “Ugh, it’s that thing again!” But it’s not that thing again, because you’re in a new space. It’s like a spiral that’s going up and you’ve just happened to come around back to a similar situation. But as you said, it’s got a new lens and nuance to it that makes you think about things differently, go through some processes again to see things differently. And then, and then again, a new level will appear.
D: I want to give a specific example for people listening. I love the spiral analogy!
When I first started my business, literally just starting to make hundreds of dollars, I remember thinking, “Oh, if I am successful in my business, my friends won’t think I’m down to earth anymore.” And that comes around for me a couple of times a year, this conversation! And the numbers are different every time.
T: With extra zeros on the end! That’s generally the way. When you get an extra zero on the end of the numbers that you’re considering, something else will pop up. It’ll be that same story, just a nuanced version of it.
D: And I still have this now. We’re just about to move into our dream house and I feel the reluctance for it. I feel the weirdness! Like, “Oh, people are not going to think I’m down to earth again.”
It’s the same shit every single time. We think that we’ve cleared it – and we did in that version – but it comes back around.
I always tell people, “What scares you today won’t scare you tomorrow. But a new version of it will.”
T: Definitely. The theme of NatEx 2020 where you are speaking again this year (we’re so excited to have you back!) is Love Your Work, Love Your Life, Love Yourself.
So what else do you love about your work?
Creating A Business Around Your Lifestyle
D: You know, I think it’s super important to design your business in line with your personality. I’ve always been a little bit of a know it all, a little bit bossy. I love improving things and people. So I kind of created this job where I’m the expert, and I get to tell people what to do. And it’s so much fun!
I think your profession and your industry probably attracts people who love solving problems and love helping people. I think it’s just great when you can do something like that, that comes naturally to you, that you probably did when you’re like seven years old for free. You probably did it in your 20s and some people listening probably still do it for free now.
But it’s like the best thing when you can just do something like that and get paid for it.
Figure Out Your Thing
T: Totally. It is totally the best! And sometimes it takes moving through those new levels of things to understand that that’s your thing.
I remember running my first retreat. We did day retreats in our clinic. It was just on one whole day, just for moms, and we just took care of everybody. I totally wanted to do it for free! I was like, “If we get freebie samples from the tea company then I wouldn’t have to pay for the teas…”
I’m pretty sure we had a conversation where you asked me, “What would happen if you took them away on holiday and you got paid for them?” And I was like, “No, I couldn’t possibly do that!” Then I ran my first retreat and, of course, I got paid because there are overheads for that kind of thing.
I remember going through the experience of it. When you’re moving through your blocks, you’re actually experiencing it and not just thinking, “Oh, maybe this is how I’ll react to it.” Going through the experience of it and then realising, “I actually got paid to go on a holiday!”
I love taking people into different cultures and creating a really interesting space for people to explore their comfort zones in a different culture. And I remember that first feeling of understanding that that’s not everyone’s cup of tea. It’s not everybody’s way that they think about things.
When we talk about that feeling of being a know it all – not all of us are know it alls or being bossy. We might like being the “Agony Aunt” and listening to everybody. Or we might like storing lots of information or doing lots of research. You can actually get paid for any of these things as part of your business.
D: Absolutely. I just thought of another thing. I used to get in trouble for talking in class all the time. Now, I basically get paid for talking! That’s so cool.
Give Yourself Permission To Do Things Your Way
The coolest thing I’ve seen with the work you do in your community is that 10 or 20 years ago, there was only one way to be a naturopath, one way to be a practitioner. Now we know that there’s a market for every price point, every personality, every way of doing business. It’s just giving yourself permission to slot into that. Or if it’s not there already to create that. Some people don’t even know that they need you in that way that you can provide it for them.
T: It was one of the biggest game-changers from the last NatEx, actually. We’ve been doing some really cool interviews about where people have gone after attending the last NatEx. And one of the biggest takeaways was understanding – because it’s still pervasive in our industry – that one-on-one consultation is the predominant way to go after you’ve got your qualification. Because most of the colleges are teaching you one on one consultations as being the pathway.
But in actual fact, every single unique gift and talent, every experience that you’ve had before coming into that qualification is able to be woven into the type of practitioner and the type of people you help to create the type of business model that actually works for you.
Create A Business That Works With Your Lifestyle and Gifts
I loved when we were reading Chillpreneur, your most recent book, that business model is such an important thing. What I love about my work is that I’ve created a business that actually goes with my gifts and my talents. It works with my lifestyle, my three kids, my love of travel, and all that kind of stuff.
It’s available to every practitioner, that they don’t have to necessarily be in a bricks and mortar business, one on one with clients back to back and not using some of those other things that make them beautifully uniquely them.
D: Absolutely. I mean, you can do that and see if you like it. Or you can skip a few steps and learn from other people like you, Tammy, and do that exploration. But I think for a lot of us it’s the permission thing. We just think it has to be a certain way. We don’t even give ourselves permission to dream it to be something different. That’s why I think so many of us overcorrect a little bit and then tweak.
T: Yeah, totally. And so I love that you love having created a business around who you are. I mean, that means it’s available to everybody! There are so many opportunities around loving your work because you can create a business and that you love. What about your life right now do you love?
Love Your Life
D: Oh, wow. I’m in a real place right now that feels a little bit like limbo. We’ve been building our dream house for three years. We’re just about to move into it. I feel like I’m coming to the end of a 10-year business cycle. I’m creating some new systems behind the scenes – which, you know how much work that is! A new website, a new home for our course. All those things feel very symbolic. It feels like a shedding some old stuff and creating containers for new stuff. I love the place that I’m in because I can feel my resistance, which is always great. It feels very freeing, as well, like I’m shedding some things.
I can have a tendency to be a bit of a workaholic type of personality. And I’ve had these flashes the last couple weeks of like, “Maybe you’ve done enough.” And I’m like, “What?!”
I didn’t even realise that I was having a low-level feeling of anxiety in my stomach, telling me that I needed to be doing more. I should be doing this or that. Some part of me always rejected that feeling of “too much” because I felt that if I had that, I wouldn’t be ambitious. I wouldn’t have the drive. I’m just feeling this flash, now.
So I think what I love about my life at the moment is the space that I’m moving into. I don’t necessarily love everything about what’s happening right now because some of it feels very frustrating. And like, “come on already!” But I love the anticipation of what’s on the other side.
Cycles In Business And Life
T: Yes, I love that.
I love that you brought up the cycles in business and cycles in life or seasons in business and seasons in life. I’ve been nearly 10 years and you’ve been 10 years in business. But in the beginning, many people don’t realise that until you play the long game that there are cycles. There are different phases of:
- things that come up
- then things that go down.
- different phases of startup
- bringing on staff
- systemising
- and then there’s kind of next-leveling it
I know that you just recently had a new photoshoot and video shoot. There are some really cool little markers in life that remind you that, “This is a new thing, okay?” Going and doing the thing makes you feel what possibility is next. Because you can feel it just around the corner. You can feel that opportunity and what life will look like just after this little bit. But there are things that you can do in the meantime that kind of make you feel that way as well.
Up-Leveling In Business And In Life
D: What you said about photoshoots. You told me that a couple of weeks ago and it’s really stuck with me. I think there’s something there about someone witnessing that for you, for sure. Seeing a photographer who already sees me as this next version of myself that we’re actually kind of creating together, at the moment. There is something magical that happens there. I can see that as a visual representation of the next part of my business. And it’s a real anchor. I want to live up to that ideal that we’ve created.
T: It always feels like you’re being pulled forward instead of you dragging everything that you think should be happening. It feels like you’re being pulled forward into an image of yourself that somebody else already sees for you.
D: Yeah, it’s really beautiful. And I feel like, oh, wow, I should have done that more recently. But when we talk about cycles, there is also stuff that happens outside of your business. I’ve had three kids in the last six years and that takes a lot out of you. You can’t necessarily work the same way.
People listening, you might have caring responsibilities for someone in your family or your parents. I wouldn’t say that I’ve loved my business every day over the last 10 years. There have been times when forced myself to do it when I really should have embraced a bit more of a fallow season. Sometimes you get burnt out from it which you’ve seen in your industry, too.
Everybody Has Roadblocks
T: That’s something that we need to have more conversations about, as well. Because it’s very easy for people to listen to podcasts, look at websites, or see somebody up on stage and think, “They’ve got it all sorted. Maybe they didn’t have any money blocks. They have people to help with their kids. Everything is fine. ”
But it doesn’t work like that. There are always moments where you are forcing yourself to show up for something. It might not be in your best interest in that very moment, but you’re showing up for it anyway for your business and your clients. So that in the long run, it can continue.
D: Absolutely. And you’ll go through stages where you hate your clients. And your employees. You hate your staff.
T: Everything you’ve created – you want to blow it all up!
D: Oh, no, you and I have never wanted to do that! (haha) But it’s so normal
T: Completely normal, yeah. And it’s completely normal to have the Kmart-job days where you’re like, “I’ll just go and get a job at the supermarket. That must make all my problems go away.” But then you think about the reality of having a job at the supermarket. . .
Setting Boundaries
D: Exactly. I think it’s that flexibility and freedom that we have to remind ourselves we went into this for but it’s also okay to set boundaries. That was my biggest problem in my first year. It was the boundaries. It was taking on too many clients, starting too early in the morning, coaching people six days a week, instead of coaching for one hour, coaching for three hours.
That was really hard because it’s hard to sustain that. That happens a lot. I know you’ve gone through that, where you’ve really burnt yourself out trying to serve people. Then realising it’s okay to want to help people and also okay to set boundaries around how you can do that.
Because, again, there’s a market for everything. You can only offer what you can offer.
T: Yeah, absolutely. And it’s times like those that give you the biggest lessons around what do you want your boundaries to look like? What would fit into your life, be it pre-babies, during babies, or when they become semi-adults. What actually fits with your life, not just with your business and your clients? And your energy and your health.
So many practitioners have their own health journeys that they’re going through at the same time and prioritising. Yes, you do have to do something for your business every day. There’s a reason that Denise and I have organised our business so that we can predominantly do it on our phones one-handed. Because we’ve had kids over that time.
The idea is to just be able to do something. Not freaking out about all the things that you can’t do, but what you can actually do. Just doing something during those days and being able to meld it with what’s happening in your life at that particular time. Rather than the be-all and end-all being just business and clients.
D: Yes, exactly. Which is such an easy trap to fall into.
Love Yourself
T: Yeah. So the third component of it our theme is Love Yourself. I’m excited to talk to you about this outside of us just getting together and chatting about it. We’ve both had an epic year of turning 40. The Love Yourself component leading up to turning 40 was a real mindset game that was happening for me, especially. I know we had a chat about it. And there’s been some really interesting things that we’ve done for ourselves and our bodies this year. I wanted to have a chat about that.
You Never Stop Changing And Learning
D: I actually started feeling the shift around age 38 or 39, for me. I really feel like I’m on the other side of it now. The lessons are still going to continue, I know. But I was even going through my wardrobe this week because we’re moving. And it was like, “Most of this is gonna go because it just felt like none of this is me anymore.” I’ve stepped into a new portal and I can’t take all of these things with me because they’re no longer welcome. There are even things that I wondered why I even bought them! There was some stuff that still had price tags on them because I bought it in that period just before and I was asking everyone, “What should I do? What should I do about this? What should I wear? Who am I?”
It was about last time last year when I was like, “Who am I? I don’t even know who I am!” So I was a bit swayed in lots of ways. My wardrobe reflects that and some of my business decisions in the last year reflected that.
It was like, “Oh, that’s how you see me? Okay, I’ll buy that dress. Because I don’t know who I am.” I’m coming out of that now and I feel like I know who I’m becoming. It’s very exciting. I’ve been on a health improvement kick. I’ve been to the dentist, the doctor, and the naturopath a million times.
T: This year has definitely been a ‘taking care of myself’ time. Yeah, the same – dentist, getting all these things sorted that I hadn’t got sorted for a long time. Beauticians. I have very rarely had been to a beautician In my whole life. Probably the biggest thing was for my wedding and occasionally getting makeup done for photoshoots.
But this year has been like, wow, this is really interesting coming into this phase of, “Okay, what does it look like and feel like to be in this body of mine when I’m 40 and beyond? And what does that look and feel like?”
It was the same for me. I had all sorts of random stuff in my cupboard. It was kind of like being a teenager again, trying on different personas and personalities that other people thought of me. And it’s been a really unique time.
What’s been your biggest thing to take care of yourself? My biggest thing was definitely pracs need pracs. So I got myself a naturopath has been helping me along so that I don’t have to just stay in my own head about it. What’s been your biggest thing?
Roadblocks Aren’t Just About Business
D: It’s a little bit hard for me to talk about. I am a big fan of loving the body that you’re in, for sure. So for me losing weight this year had some mixed feelings around it because I didn’t want it to seem like I was judging my own body or anyone else’s body. Because I truly believe in health at every size and to love the body you’re in.
But I was starting to feel very uncomfortable in my body physically. I was having to go to the chiropractor all the time for my knees and hips. My back just was not happy at all. So I wanted to experiment being in a smaller body see what that feels like.
I was doing yoga this morning, actually. My yoga teacher comes to the house which is such a great thing to do. There were some things I was doing and I was like, “Oh, this feels good. This feels better in my body.” I feel lighter in lots of ways – physically, mentally, emotionally.
But you can see how it’s a tricky topic to talk about for me because I’m so used to talking about money. Also, I found on social media that talking about your body invites people to then comment on your body. When I’ve upgraded something, I’ve had people say, “Oh, I liked that before,” or “I like this.”
And I think, “I’m not an avatar for you to design. I’m not a Sims character.” But going back to the ‘down to earth’ thing. There was some stuff there for me around me being an ideal version of healthy, dare I say, ‘sexier, slimmer way’ and still be down to earth. That was a part of what came up for me.
So again, we look at that through a new lens. Some of our money blocks are our life blocks but from a different angle.
T: I had a similar thing about my teeth, to be honest. Being a naturopath, being all about the natural and sticking with the natural. I’ve always wanted to straighten up my teeth. I’ve always wanted to do something about it. But I always thought that was frivolous to spend money on things like that. The same story coming up over and over again. But I thought if I’m going to do it, I might as well do it now. Turning 40 is actually a really big deal for me and I have been able to smile and laugh. I haven’t smiled and laughed so much in any year as I have this year.
As strange as it is, as you said, from an external body perspective, loving your body and loving yourself and all of the things – being able to feel confident in smiling has really changed the way that I’ve been able to show up. It is a really strange topic to talk about. But I really think that it’s a conversation that I think more people can have and should be able to feel safe about. That they’re choosing something for their bodies, and it is their choice to make.
Finding The Right Balance
D: This comes back to the law of attraction, money mindset thing, right? We want to find a balance where you do love and accept yourself but you also give yourself permission to want more. It’s a very interesting space because sometimes our desire comes from a place of lack or a place of not being very loving. That doesn’t attract anything from a lot of attraction point of view. You can’t attract and manifest from a place of lack and desperation.
Which is hard! Because sometimes you don’t have money. You’re like, “I DO feel desperate!” So how do you find that” I just really practice – and I preach this as well – a practice of self-love and acceptance. Then you can make a decision from a place of discernment and power, not from lack and unloving thoughts. It’s tricky.
T: Yeah, it is! That was a gold nugget, if you’re listening, Go back and rewind. That was gold.
I see it all the time and am personally living through it as well. Those moments where I don’t have the abundance mindset, where I’m coming from a space of lack,it just changes the whole dynamic of the energy that comes through.
So, we are super excited to have you at NatEx 2020. What is your vision and hope for 2020?
Vision For 2020
D: Oh, great question. So I’m trying to think of the right word for my 2020 word of the year, but it’s got something to do with ‘depth.’
I have been fairly focused over the last 10 years, but still shiny objects creep in. Topics that I really shouldn’t talk about in my blog, for instance. I had three programmes in the last two years, I was just spreading myself a little bit too thin. So I’m going back to basics and going back to my money boot camp programme. All roads lead to boot camp has always been my motto. But I strayed from it.
Marie Forleo has always my role model and she’s gone so deep on helping people with her B-School programme. I really want to emulate that. So it’s like going really deep into that work, not changing the work, but like just a dedication to that work.
To help a tonne more people with that work and not feeling like I have to be everything to everyone or solve every problem in the world.
T: Mmm! So good! I love it.
D: Being a new space, being in our house and just not having the distractions of, “Oh, I need a new website.” No. You’ve got the website now. Now, go dig.
T: Yeah, I like that a lot. Well, I am super excited to see how deep you actually go! Your past three books have been extraordinary. I can’t wait to see all the new shots on the new website. And we really, really can’t wait to have you back up on stage at NaTex 2020. Thank you so much for this wonderfully generous conversation! Thank you, Denise!
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